Talk:Bloom Clock

This is the Talk page for discussing the Bloom Clock
Please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~), and give comments that start a new topic ==A Descriptive Header==, placing them at the bottom of the page. This page is used for general discussion for the Bloom_Clock. For discussion on a particular subpage, please use its talk page	Wikimedia Foundation

first botany class?

Hey, maybe this could turn into the first botany class... you oculd have people buy a random bluming flower, have them plant it, and write down when it blooms. It would be a good introduction into how to care for plants. Of course, you don't want me in it- I've killed catusus before!--Rayc 14:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice idea, but I think that should probably be separate from the research project :). I do write wikibooks on gardening techniques, so wouldn't mind facilitating classes like that. ----SB_Johnny | ^talk 16:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

How to contribute

You should write up a section on how to contribute. I was thinking something like:

1. Find a flower that you pass by every day
2. If you own a digital camera, take a picture of it
3. Upload (steps to upload)
4. We (other users) will analys what type of plant it
5. Note which day you saw it first bloom
6. Note your location

--Rayc 04:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That would actually be a great way to help people identify the flowers... good thinkin! --SB_Johnny | ^talk 04:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to try and upload to see if it is workin. Never uploaded anything before!--Rayc 05:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell what these are then?--Rayc 05:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

LOL! Yup, those are w:Taraxacum officinale :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Mushrooms

Well, I was supposed to take a picture of some mushrooms while on vacation, but I can't find them on my PC anymore. Anyway, they looked orange and they were growing on a log with some white bark. Any idea what it was? --HappyCamper 23:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical data

Would participants in this project be interested in using herbarium specimens to record plant blooming dates?

I'm running a distributed project to document museum herbarium specimens. I had already been considering including a phenological slant to the project, and having seen this project on wikiversity am wondering if collaboration is possible.

As brief background, herbaria@home is a web based project to digitise university and museum herbarium specimens. Currently we record the species, collector, site and date of collection, but I am thinking of also requesting data on the flowering state of the specimens. This might provide data which is directly relevant to the 'Bloom clock' project. It is worth noting that for taxonomic reasons herbarium specimens are usually flowering, so very many specimens would be relevant.

Potentially this could add data from millions of specimens, with worldwide coverage. A good reason to look at historical data could be to study climate change, as flowering time and distribution can be a good way to track seasonal changes. e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/climate/evidence/phenology.shtml

I'd be very interest to hear anyone's thoughts on this. -- Japonicus 17:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC) ^talk

Getting ready for the spring

Where should people look in the spring for blooming flowers? What does this project want besides the picture (temperature, location, soil quality, etc..)--Rayc 06:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I think location is probably the most important thing for now. Regions about the size of a US "County" would be best, since it's small enough to be fairly consistent in climate (though places like California with a million niches might need to be more specific). Temperature and rainfall might be helpful, soil quality shouldn't matter. Maybe the clock users should try to keep up a page on this? If so, maybe in their userspace... some sort of userbox which auto-linked to a certain subpage of the userspace might work. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 15:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

resetting the clock

A couple notes I've been thinking of the past few days:

• I think it might be good to reset the clock on Solstice (thus twice per year), as a not-so-arbitrary division on the year (plants that take their "cues" from day length would presumably bloom predictably in either hemisphere at a given latitude). This would be strange this first year because it means any southern hemisphere contributors would be starting at midsummer, but that will be fixed up 6 months from now (when the next clock is started, and the northern hemisphere would then have a clock starting in midsummer).
• Limit the plants "watched" to weeds, wildflowers, and perennials (including trees and shrubs) that have been planted in the ground for at least one year. This would limit any skewed results from plants that might have been grown in nurseries of different climates.
• Either tie this to other clocks, or rename the project as a "life clock". The reason for this is to also include things like fungi, insects, and perhaps migrating animals.

In any case, I'm hoping to re-announce it on the colloquium and perhaps on some of the other wikis, though I'm wondering too whether there are web-forums that do this sort of thing where other interested people might be. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 15:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Pink Blossoms in January!

Hmmm. I'll try to get pictures and more info on this beauty. For now, I'm just registering the time and place. I'm in Kentucky USA where you don't see many blossoms this time of year. Interesting project! CQ 14:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Believe it or not, we've had Cherries blooming in Pennsylvania too! --SB_Johnny | ^talk 12:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I noted a prunus blossoming monday, Jan 15th. Dont know exact species. Location: Gouda, Netherlands.

To do anything with the data, we'd need a datastructure so data can be statistically analyzed. Ask for wikidata.

You'll need entities for:

• User (id, name)
• species (id, bot. name,)
• observation (species, observed by user, date observation, coordinates of observation, time of observation, identification confirmed by user, temperature, altitude)

For while these are not availabl, I suggest a semicoln separated list is used: species; Observed by User; , date observation; coordinate N; coordinate E; time of observation; identification confirmed by user; temperature; altitude;
vinca major; TeunSpaans; 2007-01-17; 52°05' N; 4°18' E; 18:00; ; 10C;0

TeunSpaans 07:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

(funny, btw, the en: and nl: wikis have different coordinates for The Hague)

I think just having as much data as possible is the best way to go, as long as we have a fairly good idea of the location. As long as people gove some good information on the contributors page, it should be reasonably useful (a bot can be used to organize the data at the end of the 6-month run). The important thing though is to make sure that if you're logging from a location other than your usual flower-spotting place, it needs to ba prominently noted (using a standard notation the bot will understand). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

data mining to discover from images?

Assuming that images of naturally-occurring flowers are available with time and date information, would it be possible to use what might be a huge number of timestamped bloom images to create the bloom clock?

JPatrickBedell 00:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean... your own photos? It would be a good idea, as long as we're sure where the photo was taken, as well as when. Flowers will bloom at different times according to latitude (including hemisphere), altitude, and other local differences from year to year. For example: Crocuses are going to bloom a lot earlier in Georgia than they do in Ontario. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Drumb up some pictures

So it's to be spring soon. Hopefully. I'm going to see if I can get some people to start taking pictures by placing a notice on the community portal. Be ready for them.--Rayc 18:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Rayc!--SB_Johnny | ^talk 20:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

And now I have a bunch of pictures for different dates. I'll upload them when I have time.--Rayc 21:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Making the clock pages prettier?

I'm wondering if it would be too much of an inconvenience for slow-connection folks to have pictures on the lists? If there's no picture, we could use Image:No image available.svg... and maybe include that in the template.

I was also thinking that maybe the logging for each particular plant should actually be a separate page, with the main page either transcluding or linking those pages. That way when plants are clearly out of season, they could be taken off the page to keep the list shorter, and could also allow people using common names to reach the same spot as those using binomials. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 13:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Moving towards a transclusion model...

I feel like I'm talking to myself sometimes :). I think I've figured out a way to make the BCP better as both a teaching, learning, and data-collecting tool, but it's boggling my mind as to how I can explain it all.

The strategy I have in mind involves knowledgeable people doing a lot of work, but it will help people learn, help people collect data, and help people teach.

I've been ruminating for weeks -- and experimenting for a day -- on how to make the bloom clock more educational, more fun to use, more interesting to look at, and more useful as a data collection tool. The solution I've come up with is using page transclusion, and an additional template.

I'm having a very hard time expressing my thoughts today (here and elsewhere), but here's what I have in mind:

1. use several lists to accomodate contributors with various levels of knowledge, including a "by scientific name" list (for people who know plants well), a "by common name" list (for people who know their plants, but don't speak botanical latin), and "by color and type" lists for those who really don't know much about plants, but want to learn.
2. keep the bcp template, with the understanding that that template will be replaced by transculded pages that use the bcp2 template.

Still having expression problems, but maybe someone sees what I'm saying? --SB_Johnny | ^talk 21:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right SB Johnny, this is a hell-of-a-lotta work. I think the MediaWiki Project should get involved, as there a lot of things about MediaWiki as a database engine that lend themselves to a project like this. I posted below about "bloom clock dynamics" and I'm back-tracking your progress so far. I know what you mean by "talking to myself" and "boggling my mind" though, so take heart! I'll keep thinking about how to contribute to the BCP getting familiar with the structure. -- CQ 21:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Documented approximate blooming times

Some Wikipedia articles have approximate blooming times from various sources (I encountered them when entering public domain tree info). For classifying those there are categories such as Category:Mid winter flowers. See the category's parent cat for a summary. (207.195.192.45 02:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

Bloom clock dynamics

This is a facinating project. I've started a course for generating dynamic content with MediaWiki and this would be an excellent content-rich application for getting some "hands-on" with dynamic content. Take a look and see if you get any ideas about different ways to implement "bloom clock dynamics" using CURRENT variables, parser functions and maybe javascript, perl or other scripting magic. I can envision an "Almanac" approach, but it's very scetchy at this point. -- CQ 20:51, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

At this point my primary interest is in collecting data, and finding ways to make data-collection fun. I'll hopefully have time this weekend to fill in some details, but I'm talking to a school and a conservation group about getting it more kid-friendly and interesting (my fellow wikibookian Whiteknight, who lives not so far from me, has volunteered to help me "train" people for this). Stay tuned... too busy and tired now to wax on (I'm a farmer, and it's spring)!--SB_Johnny | ^talk 00:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Collaborate with Wikispecies?

We could link each plant's log page to it's corresponding Wikispecies page. After all, they already link to Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, and Wikibooks. --Luai lashire 18:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, isn't Wikispecies just a collection of metadata? Most Wikipedia articles have taxoboxes which achive pretty much the same purpose. I don't have any objection to adding links to Wikispecies in the templates, but I wonder how useful it can be to a bloom clock user. --SB_Johnny | ^PA! 12:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

How goes the bloom clock?

Looks like you've got a lot of data. Any analysis of it yet?--Rayc 20:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Not enough data for analysis yet, but we do have the Keys up and running for a few regions. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 10:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Growing ornamental plants

I think we are automatically excluding growing ornamental plants and this stuff. Am I right?--Juan 15:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope :). If it's growing outside, it's fair game. Probably about 1/2 of the plants on the clock are ornamentals and/or crops. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 17:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

But do you know, that gardeners can actually offer flowering plants hole the year. Thats what they are doing. They are just replanting growing plants at the same plot.--Juan 18:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I know (I'm a professional gardener :) ), but someone using the clock keys isn't necessarily going to know which flower is an annual and which is a perennial (or even a weed or a wildflower). While not necessarily helpful for the research aspect of the clock, logs of garden plants do help the educational aspects.--SB_Johnny | ^talk 20:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So what is the recomendation for me as a person who can differ between these plants? Anyway, I thing I will do just "wild" ones:-)--Juan 20:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I've been using categories (soon to be replaced by templates) for this purpose in my region. See Category:BCP/SEPA/NP (native plants), Category:BCP/SEPA/IP (invasive plants), and Category:BCP/SEPA/GP (garden plants). I haven't done anything with these yet, but will make an annotated flora next week (once the cats are replaced by templates... user:Mike's bot account will soon do the changes). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 12:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Plants of special colection

Can I write down data also about plants from different regions, which cant be find in the wild. These plants from other regions, we have on our school fields.--Juan 11:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

All flowering plants are good. The only trick is if you go to another region (a distinct one where the bloom times might be different). In that case, use another account. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 12:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Or, may I use different singnatures?--Juan 15:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Categorising by month

I have just realized, that everithink is categorized in time by month. I would recomend to categorized it also by year. Of how well categorize flowering plants of the next October?--Juan 13:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Orphan Pages or Data

There are about 70 orphan Bloom Clock pages listed by the special pages orphan page utility. Someone from the proejct may wish to look at them, link them in or put them up for deletion if they are errors and not missing data. Mirwin 06:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

How can I find these pages? --Luai lashire 18:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The pages can be found here. It looks like these are mostly the DPLs for the keys, which are categorized but not linked (they are linked via some newer templates, but the templates aren't on all the corresponding keys yet). In some other cases they are top level subbages, which really just serve to allow automatic linking from lower subpages, but again, they're categorized and therefore not realy orphans. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Some of these pages seem a bit superfluous, such as Bloom Clock/Welcome- the information on this page is already on the main Bloom Clock page and as far as I can tell, the main Bloom Clock page doesn't even lead to the "Welcome" page. Couldn't this page just be deleted? --Luai lashire 18:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

A few of them probably could... I was experimenting around with different introductions. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 09:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Global key experiment

I'm going to try over the next few days to start setting up a global key, based on the Southeast PA data. The idea is to have 8 "seasons": early winter, late winter, early spring, late spring, and so on. The hope is to have the data organized in a less "regional" manner for new contributors.

For spring flowers that are reacting to temperature, we should probably be able to make adjusted calendars for various regions (for example, judging by cormaggio's latest entries, early spring in England would probably be in February-March, as opposed to March-April in Southeast PA.

Using the SEPA data to make the standard has 3 advantages:

1. The largest data set (for now) is from that region.
2. The Winter in southeast PA follows the solstice-equinox calendar rather closely (i.e., hard freeze tends to set in in late december, and soil thaw tends to happen in late march). In that sense the data by season will be "typical".
3. In North America, this region sits on one of the major biome lines, meaning that it's on the southern limit of much of the northern flora, and on the northern limit of much of the southern flora. This makes it easy to "tie in" data from colder and warmer locations.

I'm going to make the original keys by altering the region/month templates to add season categories and running DPL on the new categories. We can add the same categories to the region/month templates of other regions once we correlate the data. This will have to be rejiggered again each month, because I suspect that fall flowers will be reacting to daylight hours rather than growing degree days (summer flowers will probably use variable methods... let's see what the data tells us after a few years). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, got a key started at Bloom Clock/Keys/Global. Hopefully looks ok. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Questions about what to log

Question 1: I just bought a potted primrose which I intend to plant in my garden. It is blooming now, but it was raised in an artificial environment. Do I log it anyway, or wait until it's actually in my garden? (you can tell I'm a bit confused here!) :) Question 2: I saw some mosses today which had sent up stalks (not sure what the official term for those is); do we log those, or not? --Luai lashire 23:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Luai! (Yes, I'm as excited about spring as you are :-)). For the primrose, it's a bit of a gray area, but I think you should probably log it after you plant it or start to leave it outside, because a lot of people plant them out as annuals in the spring, so they'll serve the function of an annual on the keys. Just add a comment about that when you sign the logs so future researchers are fully informed.

As for the sporophytes, I really have no idea, because I really don't know anything about them other than that I like them and enjoy watching the little "stems" come up too. I'll ask the Wikipedians for advice on that (I need to give them an update anyway).

Well, I think, that it would be better to find different project for mosses, fungi, cyanophyta and these. Gardeners would not be probably interested in which period fungi are fruiting. But it would by interested for mycologists and these. All these data could be also usefull for phytogeographists. I hope for the future to make something for phytogeography, but firstly need to understand SB´s tepmlates a little bit more. But he might help right now, to found something simillar for mosses.--Juan 09:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Regional Subdivisions

How deep I can go with region subdividing? Is it reasonable? How to devide? I think political divisions to department distrcits and so on might not be a good idea. E.g. now, I have tree different accounts for Southbohemian Region, Czech Republic. For me, its quite big. There are mountains, lowlands and so on.--Juan 09:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, my 3 main accounts are used for a foothill region (where I live), a broad valley region (where I often work), and a low ridge area that's close enough to Philadelphia to have some heat island effect (each region is about 30-40 miles away from the others). Bloom time differences seem to be only a week or so, so for category purposes I've just been using "Southeastern Pennsylvania" for all three, but there's nothing to say I or someone else couldn't break them up later on if it seems appropriate (persumably this could be done by bots). Since the regional keys are broken down by months, 1-week differences won't show up at this point anyway.

Anticipating the next question :-)...: I don't think we can reasonably break down the keys to less than a month at this point unless we had a large number of people logging from any particular region, because it's unlikely that a single editor would have the time to log every plant blooming on a weekly basis. For example: during late spring and early summer in my region there are well over 200 species blooming (not including cultivars, varieties and grasses (I'm no good at identifying the latter)), and there's just no way I can promise to log all of them weekly. I'll probably be able to do a bit better at it this year because of the non-substituted templates. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Global key update and problems

Well, I started templating for the global key, but I think I need to redefine the categories, because the "2-months-in-a-season" thing is causing inaccuracies. I'm going to try instead to directly tie global cats to a single month for SEPA, which I probably should have done in the first place but wasn't happy about how that breaks up the turning months (march/june/sept/dec). The issue is worst with things blooming here in April, which I had been catting as both early spring and mid spring, but I think it's better to just use it as early spring, and keep march to late winter (rather than late winter/early spring). SEPA is usually very cold through the end of March anyway (it's -0.9º C right now, and snowing), so should work out ok.

One thing I'd like to work out on the global keys are some indicator species. Judging from some of Juan's contribs lately, these might need to be of 2 types: plants that bloom at the same time every year in a region (plants triggered by day length), and plants with variable bloom time (triggered by heat). We probably need 4 or 5 years of data to achieve this, but it's something to start watching out for. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 10:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Bloom Tree (experimental)

Just for looking at occasionally. --McCormack 16:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Bloom Tree Bloom Clock BCP/Hardy in USDA 6 BCP/USDA 6 defined Bloom Clock DPL-generators Bloom Clock Keys Bloom Clock Logs Bloom Clock maintenance Bloom Clock Plants Bloom clock project Bloom Clock Project Plants Bloom clock project templates Bloom Clock raw DPL Bloom Clock regional data Bloom Clock Regions Bloom Clock seasonal text logs Bloom Clock/Global Comparisons Bloom Clock/Global DPL/Temperate/Mid Summer Bloom Clock/Regional Florae FCP/Leaf arrangement undefined FCP/Leaf complexity undefined FCP/No Image or Description FCP/Species Bloom Clock Bloom Clock/Keys/Southern Ontario/August/All Bloom Clock/Outreach/Arboreta and Public Gardens Bloom Clock/Keys/New Hampshire/August Bloom Clock/Keys/Southwest Oregon/August Bloom Clock/BCP update discussions BCP/Geranium pyrenaicum BCP/Geranium pyrenaicum/Logs BCP/Geum urbanum BCP/Geum urbanum/Logs BCP/Rosa canina BCP/Rosa canina/Logs BCP/Sanguisorba minor BCP/Sanguisorba minor/Logs BCP/Silene dioica BCP/Silene dioica/Logs BCP/Stellaria holostea BCP/Stellaria holostea/Logs BCP/Taraxacum officinale2 BCP/Taraxacum officinale2/New BCP/Taraxacum officinale2/Old BCP/Testing page Bloom Clock/Global Key Bloom Clock/How bloom clocks are used Bloom Clock/Unknown Plants/Archive 1 Bloom Clock/Brassica napus subsp. napus Bloom Clock/Contributors Bloom Clock/Creating and editing plant pages Bloom Clock/Lists/Southeastern Pennsylvania/March/Cultivated and Non-Invasive Bloom Clock/Descriptions Bloom Clock/Descriptive Terms Bloom Clock/Editing BCP Pages Bloom Clock/Brassica napus subsp. napus/Logs Bloom Clock/Master List Bloom Clock/Keys/New Hampshire Bloom Clock/Keys/New Hampshire/November Bloom Clock/Keys/New Hampshire/October Bloom Clock/Keys/New Hampshire/September Bloom Clock/Keys/Southwest Oregon Bloom Clock/Unknown Plants Bloom Clock/Maintenance/Updating Keys

Change in log pages

The newer log pages now have the recent logs below the archives, because of some problems caused with editing noinclude sections in the lates version of mediawiki. Eventually we should change them all over... the goal is to make it easier to see where new logs go ("on the last line", rather than "on a new line below the last signature under "Recent Logs" but above the noinclude tag"). I'm not sure whether this will be bot-fixable, but just don't be surprised when you see logs in a different place on newer pages and/or pages that have been updated. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 19:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Ooohh... Oops. I already reverted a couple back to the way they used to be! I thought someone had made an error when they made the log page. Well, thanks for clarifying- I certainly won't make THAT mistake again. Although I must say, I fail to see how it makes it easier.... Having the archives of something at the very top of the page, even before the current text, seems counter-intuitive to me. --Luai lashire 00:37, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, rewording might be better: maybe just having "Logs" as the first heading, and we can break the archived logs down by year as well over time. The trouble came about because now when you hit the [edit] button next to "recent logs", the edit window would also show the archived logs as well. With the recent logs at the bottom now, it shows only the recent log list rather than all the confusing wikicode. The mediawiki change also makes the archived logs a no-edit section on the old version :(. I tried asking our local techies about it, but unfortunately couldn't find the root of the issue. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 09:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Global-temperate keys: progress and ways forward

I've been playing around with interpretations some more, and have come up with some pretty interesting results! I'm going to ask for advice on the WP ref desk sometime in the next day or two, but anyone interested can see the worksheets so far:

• Bloom Clock/Keys/New Hampshire/Global Comparison Worksheet
• Bloom Clock/Keys/Central Pennsylvania/Global Comparison Worksheet
• Bloom Clock/Keys/Prague/Global Comparison Worksheet

I'm trying to figure out when to incorporate regional data into the global data... not as easy as I would like. Stay tuned :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 17:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Structural and other changes to the clock

I've been fiddling around as usual (I seem to be suffering from Michelangelo syndrome), and have come up with some improvements and fixes:

Navigation

I'm switching to linked headers for the monthly local keys. This will make links to the key pages appearing on the main regional page, which in turn can be followed to show the global-temperate infobox and the links.

Data interpretations

All "global-temperate" regions will soon have a data analysis and comparison system to match up to the global-temperate keys. Monthly keys will also have a template linking to the best match(es) on the g-t keys.

Modifications to the templates

Top

• Add a "general information" field for discussing things not addressed by the other fields
• Add a "cookbook link" field to make links to the wikibooks cookbook for edible plants with recipes
• Remove the "quiz" link (the mediawiki for the quizzes has long been broken), and add a "fruit" link (for the soon-to-come fruit clock).
• Add a "higher taxa" link (from species to genus, variety to species, etc.)

Middle

Add multiple "new region #" fields, since we have at least 3 new ones coming up. We'll name these starting at 3-12... the bot will be better able to keep track if we make sure each new field has a distinct name.

Bottom

Add several semi-defined fields to increase catagorizations, and get rid of "non-dichotomous" fields:

• Flower shape: will use a "see instructions" clarifier... too many possible entries!
• Inflorescence type: will use a "see instructions" clarifier... too many possible entries!
• Veination: palmate/pinnate/linear

• Species field: to keep species general records up to date for species with multiple cultivars

• Separate color fields: embedded templates are too comfusing and hard to keep track of
• multicolor field: mono/bi/multi/variable

• Separate type fields: tree/shrub/vine/herbaceous

• Separate pollination fields: far to complicated as it is now.
  • wind
  • animal

• Nectar source quality: for logging plants that are often/sometimes/never covered in insects

• Remove calander season field (already provided now by global cross-categorizations)

• Toxic to humans
• Toxic to livestock

Summary

It's a bunch of changes... I'll probably wait for more input and ideas about the bottom template for now, but will ask for a bot run to modify the middle and top templates (for one thing, we desperately need the new region fields!) within the next day or two. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Assigning New Region 1 and 2

I'm going to modify these to accept templates from Juan (for West Bohemia), and HortMan (Victoria, Australia). More New regions will become available after the bot runs through. We really should have some sort of policy for assigning... thus far I'm just using the "10 or more in a month" approach. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

New region 3 assigned

New region 3 is now used for Moravia-Silesia, Czech Republic, using the template series mo-si and categories MO-SI. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 17:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

New region 4

I'm designating "new region 4" for the Czech name of plants (since we have 2 very active contributors from the Czech Republic). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 19:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Changed log pages, change to bottom template in progress

Well, I went ahead and changed the template that makes new logs, and it's easy to redo the old ones using the script as well. The change in the mediawiki code that caused the earlier problems is still there, so it's still best to keep the recent logs at the bottom. The new change makes more sections for organizing the older logs, using heirarchichal headers so that whether you hit edit next to "Logs", "2008 logs" or "recent logs", you can always add new logs to the bottom.

I replaced all the text at the top with a single template, which can easily be modified later on. I've noticed some confusion here and there about where logs should go, so that message should eventually be made clearer (for now, it at least works structurally).

There's also been a lot of confusion lately about how to use the bottom template, so I'm hoping to change the non-dichotomous parts (where templates have been needed... e.g.: instead of adding {{bcp/white}} to the "flower color (...) =" field, you would now just add "y" or "yes" next to "white flowers = ". We'll be able to track the new and old versions after the bot run using a tracking categories. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Assigning New Region 5 to Aurora, Colorado

User:Ngravagna has added a lot of logs (and new pages) for this region... I haven't had much luck getting in touch with him to describe the region, but I do want to get the keys and cats up, so I'll add them myself for now and hope he'll get in touch :). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 11:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Changes to BCP pages

I'll send talk page messages later, but new BCP pages will have a markedly different version of the bottom template. In brief, here's how to answer them:

1. for color options, just add "y" or "yes" after any colors that apply (for in-betweens like "greenish yellow", add "y" after both green and yellow)
2. for the other new options (formerly under "type" and "pollination method"), also just add "y" after whatever applies
3. "calendar season" is no longer on the template... the global-temperate keys will eventually serve this purpose much better (and also give us flexibility for monsoon seasons and other equatorial variants).
4. I'll explain the leaf veination and fruit present stuff later... got distracted on IRC and really have to run!

The bot will at some point come through and add these fields as well... the old fields still work and all data will be preserved. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

By the way, as long as the bot is coming through, I asked him to update the middle template too. Please don't try to manually update any of the old versions... the bot follows a specific category. "New Region 3" and "New Region 4" still work as before, the bot will replace the text when it does the other updates. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

plant communities

what do you think about inserting a field for plant communities of occurrence (from literature) into the plant page template? like Fagion, Alno-Ulmion, ... can be useful to check species classification. but dont't know, whether this system is used internalionally. -- Turnvater Jahn 20:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Change log dates

Is if possible (to handle for the bot) to log a plant and change the date of the signation? Last week i recorded a lot of blooming plants, but had no internet access to log them. Thanks. -- Turnvater Jahn 02:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, one easy way is to just change your signature in preferences to include the date for the day you're logging for, then sign with *~~~ rather than *~~~~ so it doesn't show the date twice. I'm not sure a bot could do it, since it wouldn't have any way of knowing which logs to alter. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 08:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I just meant, whether the bot which summarizes the data to create the bloom clocks (isn't it a bot?) uses the date of signature to determine finding times. Not, wheater a bot could change the date. But my question is answered, since it should work. Thanks.

And sorry for my bad edits. -- Turnvater Jahn 14:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. No, there is not bot for that yet. Adding the regional template adds the category which is picked up by the DPL. For example, when you (Turnvater Jahn) log a plant this month, you should also add {{bcpm/leilo/6}} after the "| New Region 6 =" prompt on the middle template. For last month you use {{bcpm/leilo/5}}. For both this month and last month, you add {{bcpm/leilo/5}}, {{bcpm/leilo/6}}.

Templates to automate data summarization

I had a similar problem like dicussed in the section above: how to summarize and visualize logs automatically. I thought, a bot would be needed to do so, but i was wrong. The templates i wrote for the plant atlas (de) were inspired (and partially copied) from BCP, so the problem is really similar.

The solution i found consists of

• using a template to log, in spite of the signature, e.g. de:Vorlage:PPA/Fund (finding entry), de:Vorlage:PPA/Kartierer (mapping contributor), de:Vorlage:PPA/Kartierer/Ort (contributor location(s))
• adding three parameters by "parameter = {{{xxx}}}" for
  • what you want the template to do (show on map, report coords, ...),
  • search field and
  • search for what, when using the template.

If you use the log list as template then, you can specify "xxx" and use one list to draw a map, search for entries of a specified user, draw a visual bloom clock, categorize, ...

Especially consider de:Projekt:Atlas der Blütenpflanzen/Quadranten (and click one of the green map entries), de:Projekt:Atlas der Blütenpflanzen/Kartierer and the species pages and subpages. E.g.

Alliaria petiolata (i like the icon bot top left),

its log page,

its map page

So if templates with specification of user name and date of sight in spite of just signatures, and contributor/location templates at the contributors page (like de:Vorlage:PPA/KartiererListe) were used on PCB, automatic bloom time visualization would be possible. Perhaps on a world map? -- Turnvater Jahn 00:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, we sort of have those templates already, but not in lieu of signatures. For one thing, "*~~~~" is a lot easier for new contributors to log rather than a template (we do use templates later to mark things). For another, it would create difficulties with archiving (e.g., BCP/Taraxacum officinale would be a rather unattractive page if the entire list from BCP/Taraxacum officinale/Logs was on the page. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 08:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It was just an idea. Of course, logging would be more time consuming and difficile, esp. for new contributors. Therfore i provide personalized log entry copy-and-paste templates on de:Projekt:Atlas der Blütenpflanzen/Kartierer (open the box). But the increased difficulty is an argument.

Archiving is no problem, i think. You can also include two log pages, like

{{Template:BCP/VisBloomClock
  |species = {{SUBPAGENAME}}
  |logs = {{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Logs}} {{{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Logs/Archived}}
  |...
}}

But, as i said, just some idea. -- Turnvater Jahn 14:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I had thought about using a separate archive page, but it ends up adding a lot of extra steps both in the profile-making process as well as simply making it more difficult to archive :-). A few other points:

1. Using the templates on the main profile page rather than on the log page allows multiple users from a single region to collaborate on a displayed result (see any profile for how that works, but the main thing is that it creates an easily understood list of when a plant has been seen blooming in a particular region, and also a link to a key).
2. Using the templates on the log page (let alone on both a log page and an archive log page) would cause serious issues when trying to apply DPL (which is needed both to semi-automatically create keys as well as compare bloom time data from region to region).
3. We actually do have some relatively simple-to use templates available (much simpler than the ones I think you're talking about), but even those are difficult to explain: (and (no offense, but) you yourself still have not gone back to add them... Category:BCP/LEILO/5's pages were all templated by me (and I don't think I got them all).

Keep in mind that I'm not a programmer or anything, but the templates we have now are the results of almost 2 years of experimentation. A template that can create maps would be wonderful, but the primary thrust of the bloom clock is to serve as a research project, and the templates we have now serve that purpose quite well. Once you've familiarized yourself with how to use what we have, you'll be in a much better place to see how they can be improved upon :-). --SB_Johnny | ^talk 14:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, didnt't want to appear as smart ass, just referred to our conversation about bots. And sorry for not adding the templates, i already have a list of approx. 50 logs not done yet. i've spent a lot of time to PPA. -- Turnvater Jahn 19:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

No hurry :). Keep in mind though that the global-temperate comparison needs those categories to work (see worksheet). That's where the "research" side of things really kicks in.--SB_Johnny | ^talk 08:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, from there i came to Template:Bcp-gtdpl, which uses dynamicpagelist. I was looking for something like category intersection, which is not available in wp.de. But dynamicpagelist is. Schould be an alternative. -- Turnvater Jahn ^{| 16:32 11.06.2008}

(reset tabs) You mean wv.de, I think? Yeah, I have quite a few templates now using DPL (still experimenting), see Category:Bloom clock project templates/DPL. Eventually all the keys will use these templates, since they're a bit more intuitive to use in comparison to just typing in the actual DPL scripts. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 18:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Template updates

It's time once again to get a bot run to modify the bottom template:

First, we need "graminoid" to differentiate between herbaceous forbs and herbaceous grasses

Second, some of the fields on the bottom are causing prblems for genus profiles, since they only allow one option when there might be several options that apply to a genus. For example, for Acer (maples), you need to be able to classify leaf complexity as pinnately compound (e.g., A. negundo), trifoliate (e.g., A. griseum), and simple (most other maples), and the same applies to lobes, petioles, and so on. I really want to start working on botanical keys during the winter, so it will have to be changed to allow more answers (switching them all to simple y/n/blank answers). This means a bunch of new fields on the bottom template, or perhaps just a new template for leaf descriptions only.

Third, I want to add a 4th (or 5th?) template for hardiness zones. This would just list the usda hardiness zones from 1-12, and would be filled in to say if a plant is hardy, tender, annual or biennial in a given hardiness zone. The goal there is to gather horticultural data so that gardeners and designers could use the project to select plants for color and season when doing a design.

I've also been thinking about adding height and spread, both for horticultural selection and for identification, but not uite sure how the fields would be defined, so that might wait until the next update.

I'll start working up a scratch version over the next few days (will be raining here). --SB_Johnny ^talk 09:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Central Minnesota

I'd like to get more involved with the BCP, and to be perfectly honest I have no idea how the system works and would like to learn so I don't "mess anything up". :-D Anyway, now that it's almost October in good old (cold!) Minnesota where I live, I'm not going to be too much help in logging blooms, but I'd like to help set up the keys. Any data sorting, etc. that I can help out with? I'd also like to start setting up a key for central Minnesota, as I know a few nature centers around here that might like to bring the BCP into their program. What do I need to do to get started? Trinity507 17:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Maintainers

Hey,

are there still any maintainers of this project around?--Juandev (discuss • contribs) 19:43, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Getting involved

I just recently discovered this page, even though I have been dabbling in wikiversity for the last couple of years. The topic of bloom time in different regions of the world is something I am interested in as an on-and-off gardner.

I have a question regarding participation. The page says:

• "To participate, read the page on How to Contribute, then go to the Contributors page and sign in"

Since I am not interested enough to become a serious student, how else can I get involved?

Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (discuss • contribs) 22:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)