Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-March-15

This is the chat from our meeting on 15th March 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: Erkan Yilmaz, pietrodn, Ramac

14:42 * Erkan_Yilmaz searches for the topics for this meeting
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>1. Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down.
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>2. Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks.
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>3. Thucydides gives a summary of the Peloponnesian War. He sees Pericles as a great leader. Athenian leaders after him blew it and missed out on an easy victory.
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>4. Local conflicts are becoming part of the major war: Thracians want to conquer a town, Ambraciots take revenge on the Amphilochians, Plataea doesn't trust the Thebans.
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>5. The view on the war becomes more pronounced by the speech of Pericles and the issue of Plataea. The Greeks are angry with the Athenians, because they use terror to subdue the Greeks. Pericles defends this terror by stating that it makes the Athenians rich and powerful, otherwise they might become the slaves of others. But even richness is not enough, serving and dying for the state is of the most importance according to Pericles, who has a distaste for easy temporary pleasures and individualism.
14:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thanks to Daan for these
14:45 <pietrodn>wow
14:45 <pietrodn>a lot of things
14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, but we can discuss the ones you want
14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I have just finished reading the text :-)
14:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I collect my notes now online:
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://de.wikiversity.org/wiki/Kurs:Der_Peloponnesische_Krieg/Notizen
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is in German
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but you could use an online translation service perhaps ?
14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>should we start the meeting Pietro ?
14:48 <pietrodn>let's start
14:50 - Ramac joined
14:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ciao Ramac
14:51 <pietrodn>ciao ramac!
14:52 <Ramac>:)

Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down - influence on arts

14:56 <pietrodn>1. Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down.
14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok let's start that one
14:56 <Ramac>yeah
14:56 <pietrodn>With the pestilence, someone gets rich
14:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>death everywhere - that is what interest people in news
14:57 <pietrodn>Their relatives died, so they inherited a lot of money
14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes either by relatives being heir or stealing from the dead
14:57 <Ramac>pestilence in athens! we are studying it in history of art -- lisippo, skopas...
14:57 <Ramac>:D
14:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lisipo + Skopas are ... ?
14:57 <pietrodn>People didn't know how to cure plague
14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, that is bad :-(
14:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but somehow some survived
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>perhaps in the future someone should have studied why this was ? but I guess during the plaque it wasn't done or not the technical needs to do so
14:59 <Ramac>he is a sculptor
14:59 <Ramac>* they are
14:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippos
15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopas
15:00 <pietrodn>Greeks didn't know where was the pestilence from, I think
15:00 <Ramac>:)
15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lysippos was a Greek sculptor of the 4th century BC.
15:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Skopas (Ancient Greek: Σκόπας; c. 395 BC-350 BC) was an Ancient Greek sculptor and architect,
15:00 <pietrodn>Lysippos
15:00 <unilinky>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysippos
15:00 <Ramac>it is like the seventy-century pestilence
15:00 <pietrodn>unilinky doesn't give the incipit :-(
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>could be though we know where it came from - at least Thucydides tell so - Äthopien > Ägypten > Lybien > Persien > Piräus > Athen
15:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so what have the sculptors to do with the pestilence ?
15:01 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: it is the same period :)
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so that is the only connection ? or did the pestilence influence their attitude towards art somehow specially ?
15:02 <Ramac>people do no longer believe in divinities
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true
15:02 <pietrodn>their religion was an utilitaristic religion
15:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thucydides told they did not fear morale and laws because of death being possibel anytime
15:03 <Ramac>and so for example in scopas' sculputer there was naked
15:03 <pietrodn>*utilitarian
15:03 <Ramac>* there was naked divinities
15:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a picture Ramac ?
15:03 <Ramac>mmh.. wait a minute :)
15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have an example pietrodn about this utilitarian way of thinking ?
15:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. like before war they sacrificed to have the Gods on their side
15:04 <Ramac>http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Apollo_Saurocton_Louvre.jpg <-- it is a picture from prassyteles
15:04 <Ramac>the same period
15:04 <Ramac>apollo is naked
15:04 <Ramac>and he's playing like a child
15:04 <pietrodn>if people wanted anything from their gods, they had to do sacrifices
15:05 <Ramac>yes
15:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so you could say the pestilence was something which made available something like a change in mind, e.g. like in Renaissance ?
15:05 <Ramac>but sacrifies didn't work
15:05 <Ramac>well yes
15:05 <pietrodn>The bigger the sacrifice was, the bigger the Gods operated
15:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah therefore Delphi got so rich :-)
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so rich people could influence by way of Gods wills and influence normal people telling: you know we are backed up by the Gods :-)
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as e.g. the Athenians thought in II, 54 / I, 118
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>like brain washing perhaps ?
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>public propaganda ?
15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Delphi Oracle told that one God would help the Lacaedaemonians if they needed him and that the PSartans would win the war
15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so they have already God on their side
15:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what can normal people do against Gods (might the Athenians have thought)
15:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac how long did this change of mind hold on in the arts ? since then always ? or did they switch back in art again to non-naked portraits of Gods ?
15:10 <Ramac>well
15:11 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: i haven't studied yes the next period
15:11 <Ramac>but
15:11 <Ramac>in the precedent period divinities were proud and magnificent
15:13 - elmacenderesi joined
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi elmacenderesi
15:13 <elmacenderesi>hey
15:13 <elmacenderesi>h're u
15:13 <pietrodn>hi
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I just invited elmacenderesi
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>elmacenderesi we were talking about the pestilence in Athens and what effects it had on the city, on art on the people
15:15 <elmacenderesi>hmm
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac was talking about the influence on the art back then -> that artists began to show Gods naked, because people didn't believe so much in Gods anymore, after having bad experience with plaque
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Apollo_Saurocton_Louvre.jpg
15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac did I get you ?
15:17 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: did i get you = ? :(

15:25 <pietrodn>Greek people was in panic
15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we were at "1. Pestilence in Athens. Society breaks down."
15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, everywhere smell of death, hot summer
15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you can't go out, since Spartans + allies outside

Athens and individuals and the collective

15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what I found interesting was this:
15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Thucydides tells that people didn't act civil anymore
15:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they were barbarian
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I thought this can not be true for all
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean imagine: you have a family and someone dies, you are in sorrow
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you are probably wanting to help other family members
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if you truly love them
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you don't abandon them
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I don't know the social structure of Athens back then
15:29 <pietrodn>They think: "My life is short" - so they didn't respect laws, that was not important
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but if what Thucydides is true, probably the social structure consisted too much of individuals ?
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean we hear that Athens was a city of thinkers
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but we dont know much if they had also their families with them ?
15:30 <pietrodn>after the oplitic revolution, the collectivity was very important
15:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>w:Oplitic Revolution
15:30 <unilinky>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/w:Oplitic_Revolution
15:31 <pietrodn>mmh
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you have a link ?
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or what was it ?
15:31 <pietrodn>there was a change in fighting
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah I understand
15:31 <pietrodn>not during the peloponnesian war, much time before
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the common people get more powers/participation ?
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>didn't Ephialtes and Tolmides also help the demos more to get power ?
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>liek politicians using the demos in the elections
15:32 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite
15:33 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: In hoplitic fighting, all the soldiers had to be together. They couldn't break the structure, e.g. by fighting alone
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes like the Phalanx idea ?
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one hoplite was protected by the other hoplite
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if one left the other hoplite was defenseless on his one side
15:34 <Ramac>yes
15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that is also why in battle if some hoplites retreated the whole army was in danger
15:34 <Ramac>so it is not important only one hero
15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or not whole but part of the hoplites from that part
15:34 <Ramac>but the strength is the number
15:34 <pietrodn>yes, I mean that
15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so there was a strong idea of the collective
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but I think of the individual at the moment
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>imagine you have lost a family member
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>then you are in sorrow
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>because of the loss
15:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably you are not thinking logically at that momnet
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so if nobody helps you, you will do something stupid
15:36 <pietrodn>yes
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>e.g. self murder, do not eat
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>this is because you had a strong relation
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but if you have other family members - who also love you, they will help you - no matter what
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Thucydides talks also of them
15:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>that people died because helping the others
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but he focusses in my opinion also much on that civility got lost
15:37 <pietrodn>yes, they were infected - especially the doctors
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and therefore I was thinking perhaps the social structure back then was not that of families, but more of individuals ?
15:37 <pietrodn>Each man focuses on his own life
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or people who did not really value family values
15:37 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if he does so, he will certainly if he survives have bad conscience ?
15:38 <pietrodn>It was a terrible situation
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well that is true, we can't imagine probably

was there anything good that came because of the pestilence ?

15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, was there anything good that came because of the pestilence ?
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>1. change in thinking in art
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>what else ?
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>2. a description of the pestilence by Thucydides to help future doctors/people to indicate probs faster and rescue parts of the population ?
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>something like a master plan for evacuation
15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>3. for warfare: how to take a walled city -> bring in biological weapons
15:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>4. change of thinking in general in relation with Gods ?
15:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so guys, we change to next topic ?

15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we have these to go:
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>2. Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks.
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>3. Thucydides gives a summary of the Peloponnesian War. He sees Pericles as a great leader. Athenian leaders after him blew it and missed out on an easy victory.
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>4. Local conflicts are becoming part of the major war: Thracians want to conquer a town, Ambraciots take revenge on the Amphilochians, Plataea doesn't trust the Thebans.
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>5. The view on the war becomes more pronounced by the speech of Pericles and the issue of Plataea. The Greeks are angry with the Athenians, because they use terror to subdue the Greeks. Pericles defends this terror by stating that it makes the Athenians rich and powerful, otherwise they might become the slaves of others. But even richness is not enough, serving and dying for the state is of the most importance according to Pericles, who has a distaste for easy temporary pleasures and individualism.
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>any wishes ?
15:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn Ramac elmacenderesi
15:46 <pietrodn>I'm not prepared with those arguments... :-(
15:47 <pietrodn>I didn't study them at school
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>doesn't matter
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but you read the text I think ?

Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks.

15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how about this ? "Pericles saves his skin. Athenians are angry with him for the unpopular war. Pericles convinces them to struggle on and preserve their empire which is hated by other Greeks."
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the Athenians are angry and then Pericles calls a meeting
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and explains why they must still hold out
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and he convinces them
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but still they are angry and deelect him and reelect him later again, because no suitable person to do the job :-)
15:49 <pietrodn>lol
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and the best now:
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Pericles dies and nobody else to fill the vacuum
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and so as Thucydides tells the city loses more of its power
15:49 <pietrodn>Pericles was great...
15:50 <Erkan_Yilmaz>regarding Thucydides: yes
15:50 <Ramac>i prefer #thucydides :P
15:50 <Ramac>XD
15:50 <Ramac>* i prefer thucydides :P
15:50 <Ramac>XD XD
15:51 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: sorry
15:51 <Ramac>what were you talking about? :)
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about Pericles convincing the Athenians to hold out longer in the war
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean the Athenians send also envoys to Lacadaemonians but they refused them
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so there was practically no way out to have peace
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably the Spartans and allies thought: let's wait the disease to do the work for us

Plataea

15:53 <Erkan_Yilmaz>anyone interested also in Plataea ?
15:53 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I'm not prepared on this, and I have to do homework. I should quit
15:54 <pietrodn>I think we should get more people here
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, we should, can you make some ads in other channels, if you know some
15:54 <Ramac>Erkan_Yilmaz: uhm i don't remember :D
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think Wikibookians should be interested perhaps ?
15:54 <Ramac>mmh... try asking #wikibooks :D
15:54 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac: in the 3rd year king Archidamos goes against Plataea instead to Attica
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the funny thing:
15:55 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I put an ad on it.wikibooks's village pump
15:55 <Ramac>the battle of platea, salamina, ?
15:55 <Ramac>:(
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>King Pausanias in 479 BC promised that Plataea would be free and who tries to fight/enslave them must consider that Spartans and friends will protect Plataea
15:55 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, when The Greeks fought against Persia
15:55 <Ramac>ah yes :)
15:56 <pietrodn>Bye!
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and now 70 years later another Spartan king comes and attacks Plataea
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>50 years later, sorry
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Plataea is in a bad situation: they are surrounded and can't surrender because Athenians tell, dont leave the pact
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so they have to fight Spartans
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and guess who wins ? ;-)
15:58 <Ramac>athen?
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lacaedaemonians take Plataea
15:59 <Ramac>:D
15:59 * Ramac away :D
15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but they make a calling to the Gods that they did not want to fight Plataea, but Plataeans did not give them any choice, after Sparta offered many options to them
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, so we will see next week Ramac ?
16:00 <Ramac>okay :)
16:00 <Ramac>however, try asking someone else ... :D
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac elmacenderesi anything against publishing logs ? I will remove private things not relate dto Thucydides
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok ?
16:00 <Ramac>yes :D
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx, Pietro agreed before already
16:01 <Ramac>yeah