Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War/Meetings/2008-February-16

This is the chat from our meeting on 16th February 2008 in #thucydides about Thucydides: The Peloponnesian War.

People joining the chat: assassingr, Daan, Erkan Yilmaz, myrmikonos, Phidias, pietrodn, Ramac, savagerose

14:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, I have read the text 100-125 others too ? so we know if we should make a summary first

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14:07 <Daan_>I did so as well.
14:07 <Daan_>The first 20 aphorisms was a huge amount of facts.
14:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, lots of the past before the Peloponnesian War
14:07 <Daan_>Followed by the Corinthian speech to convince the confederation to start a war versus Athens.
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corinthian speech started at book I, 120 and before 100-120 was the summary of the historical events
14:09 <Daan_>i wrote down some themes on the Thucydides reading group article.
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>should we shortly state them, so others also know ?
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they are about this 100-125 ?
14:09 <Daan_>Yes, that is good.
14:09 <Daan_>Yes, they are.
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, so post them here then
14:09 <Daan_>I will look them up.
14:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok
14:10 <pietrodn>ok
14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>pietrodn did you read the text ?
14:10 <Daan_>http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Thucydides:_The_Peloponnesian_War#Proposals
14:10 <Daan_>It starts in the middle.
14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or other question: who wants to have a short summary on the text ?
14:10 <pietrodn>No, I didn't... but I studied the notes by my history teacher
14:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you clever boy :-)
14:11 * Erkan_Yilmaz reads the link now
14:11 <pietrodn>:-)

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14:11 <Ramac>pietrodn: also i last year studied peloponnesian war... i had 9 in the class test... but now i can't remember well :(

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14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Ramac great so you know already about it
14:12 <pietrodn>Ramac: np
14:12 <Ramac>yes i studied last year...
14:12 <myrmikonos>^^
14:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is easy then, when we shortly talk about the facts you easily can join or ?
14:12 <Ramac>atene, sparta, segesta, corinto...
14:12 <Daan_>Atene is Athens in Italian?
14:13 <Ramac>yes sorry ;)
14:13 <Daan_>It is Athene in dutch
14:14 <pietrodn>http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Athens
14:14 <Daan_>The city is in the dictionary.
14:15 <Daan_>gotta go to the toilet.
14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:15 <Ramac>:D
14:15 - Phidias joined
14:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi Phidias
14:16 <Phidias>hi there :)
14:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>myrmikonos this is the Phidias you mentioned ?
14:16 <Phidias>english, or german?
14:16 <pietrodn>Hi Phidias
14:16 <Phidias>ah ... kay ... eng ^^
14:16 <Phidias>jep, I'm the one and only ^^
14:16 <myrmikonos>there is onlz one real Phidias in this wolrd
14:16 <myrmikonos><(
14:16 <Ramac>hi Phidias
14:16 <myrmikonos>haha
14:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but Phidias died 1 year before the Peloponnesian War :-( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phidias
14:17 <Phidias>so I'm the ghost of him ;)
14:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:18 <pietrodn>Phidias was a very good sculptor
14:18 <Daan_>And a reincarnation
14:18 <Ramac>pietrodn: yes, he was the author of the partenon
14:18 <Daan_>Hi Phidias!
14:18 <Phidias>jep, jep jep ... but ... back to topic? :D
14:19 <Phidias>hy daan
14:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Phidias what do you know about the P. War ?
14:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>shall we make a summary about todays content of Book I 100-125 ?
14:19 <Daan_>Who read the text and who didn't?
14:19 <pietrodn>Erkan_Yilmaz: I think that we should make a short summary
14:19 <Daan_>I did read it.
14:19 * Erkan_Yilmaz fears only Daan_ + me
14:19 * pietrodn didn't
14:19 <assassingr>Ramac: Along with Kallikratis

Egyptian expedition

14:20 <Phidias>umm ... a bit here, a bit there ... i've wrote some work about the egyptian expedition mentionend within the passages, that you should discuss right now ^^
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>great
14:20 <Ramac>ictino and kalikratys, i dunno the translation...
14:20 <Daan_>The egyptian expedition was interesting.
14:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>why because so many dead people ? :-)
14:20 <Phidias>yes, the beginning of the end ^^
14:20 <Daan_>Especially the Corinthians and Epidaurians fighting on the Persian side versus Athens.
14:20 <pietrodn>The egyptian expedition was after the 2nd Persian War... and before the Peace of Callias, isn't it?
14:21 <Daan_>Oh well, it is more original than a heart attack.
14:21 <Phidias>yes, right this one
14:21 <Daan_>Pietro, i don't know.
14:21 <Daan_>I guess so.
14:22 <Phidias>that onw that endet with the defeat of the whole athenian expeditioncorps ^^
14:22 <Daan_>Yes.
14:22 <Daan_>Important for the athenians was the Phoenician fleet.
14:22 <pietrodn>Daan_: there was a rebellion by the Egyptians against Persia, and the Grreks helped Egyptians, but they lost.
14:22 <pietrodn>*greeks
14:23 <Daan_>The Phoenicians were part of the Persian Empire, and their fleet was as strong as those of the Greeks.
14:23 <pietrodn>Daan_: then Greeks and Persians signed the Peace of Callias
14:23 <Daan_>Oh, okay.
14:23 <Phidias>jep, somewhat about 150 to 200 triremes plus crew got killed
14:23 <pietrodn>Daan_: Phoenicians had a very strong commercial fleet
14:23 <Daan_>It was in the text i think. But the text mentioned a lot of details.
14:24 <Phidias>the text is just about details :D
14:24 <Daan_>And the Persians also got Greek fleets, from Asia and Cyprus.
14:24 <Daan_>Yes, it is.
14:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I, 104 200 ships which were located atm in Cyprus
14:24 <Daan_>Well, the Corinthian speech is more coherent.
14:24 <Phidias>Oo where did you find this concrete numbers?
14:25 <Daan_>In the text of Thucydides!
14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>later also 50 Athenian ships were destroyed I, 110
14:25 <Phidias>ah
14:25 <Phidias>i see ^^
14:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>besides the losses of great people
14:26 <pietrodn>Athens and Phoenicians was rivals also before the Persian Wars
14:26 <Daan_>A few days ago i read about the history of Cyprus.
14:26 <Daan_>It had several kingdoms which had to pay tribute to Persia.
14:26 <Phidias>but it can't be such an large ammount, because the whole fleet existet of about 300 ships, the expedition lastet about 6 years and the athenians use much more than 100 ships in the meanwhile
14:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Phoenicia (or Phenicia \fi-ˈnish-(ē-)ə, -ˈnēsh-\,[1] from Biblical Phenice \fi-ˈnī-sē\[1]) was an ancient civilization centered in the north of ancient Canaan, with its heartland along the coast of modern day Lebanon, Syria and Israel.[2] from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenecian
14:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the 200 ships meant Athenian and from allies
14:27 <Daan_>Yes.
14:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>let me reread
14:28 <Daan_>I think the Athenian Empire was a copy of the PErsian Empire: several small states which have to pay tribute to the centre.
14:28 <pietrodn>Daan_: Greece wasn't an unificated state
14:29 <pietrodn>uh, Athenian Empire, sorry
14:29 <Daan_>Yes, several states were independent from both Persia and athens.
14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Abandoning a Cyprian expedition upon which they happened to be engaged with two hundred ships of their own and their allies, they arrived in Egypt and sailed from the sea into the Nile, and making themselves masters of the river and two-thirds of Memphis, addressed themselves to the attack of the remaining third, which is called White Castle. Within it were Persians and Medes who had taken refuge there, and Egyptians who had not joined the rebellion.
14:29 <Phidias>but the most allied fleets are somewhat about 20 or 30 ships and the most alies of athens preferred to pay tribute instead of sailing into war :)
14:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1
14:29 <pietrodn>Daan_: they still were separated poleis
14:30 <Daan_>Yes, they were. But the same counts for several parts of the Persian Empire. It is a similar system. Allthough the Persians also got provinces.
14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Phidias is right with the allies and tribute
14:30 <pietrodn>THe Persian Empire was a federated empire
14:30 <Daan_>Yes.
14:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think only a few states had navy like Lesbos, Samos, ...
14:30 <Phidias>so if the amount of athenian losses would count about 200 ships, there would have been no chance for them resisting sparta and his allies in the coming time and there would have been absolutely no chance for them to intervene in sicily
14:31 <Daan_>Other than the preceding Babylonian Empire, which was very authoritarian.
14:31 <Daan_>It depends on how quick a shipyard builds new ships.
14:31 <pietrodn>Daan_: The poleis of the Delian League was submitted by Athens, the satrapies wre part of the Persian empire, it's different IMHO
14:31 <pietrodn>*were
14:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably takes time to bild a ship
14:31 <Daan_>Athens had a large population besides.
14:32 <Daan_>Satrapies were provinces, but Cyprus was a dependency with poleis.
14:32 <myrmikonos>[i am always smiling , when somebody write Lesbos ;) ]
14:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>haha
14:32 <Daan_>A dependency of Persia.
14:32 <Phidias>:D
14:32 <Daan_>Are you from Lesbos?
14:32 <myrmikonos>nope ,
14:33 <myrmikonos>Dresden
14:33 <Phidias>uhm ... ships were constructed quite fast, but they were quite expensive ...
14:33 <Daan_>Dresden?
14:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan_ he smiles because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian
14:33 <Phidias>germany, saxonia ^^
14:34 <pietrodn>Themistocles said to build ships, after the 2nd persian war
14:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but: "The word lesbian dates back at least to 1732 and lesbianism appears in the 1870 Oxford English Dictionary meaning sexual orientation rather than a reference to Sappho and inhabitants of Lesbos."
14:34 <Phidias>yes pietro, that is why the athenians had about 300 ships ;)
14:35 <Daan_>Nowadays there are probably some earlier texts, isn't it.
14:35 <pietrodn>Themistocles said to build ships, after the 1st persian war, sorry
14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I have here also a text which tells Athens had 300 triremes
14:35 <pietrodn>not 2nd
14:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>plus troup transporters and such
14:36 <Daan_>What if history: What if athens could have held on to Egypt.
14:36 <myrmikonos>where were the trees for 300 ships v.v
14:36 <Daan_>Crimea?
14:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I think from Thracia and such regions ?
14:36 <Phidias>hmm ... first, bnecause it was the athenian fleet, which led the naval expedition at artemision near the thermopyles
14:36 <Daan_>Athens was a trading nation, so you use ships for transporting wood.
14:36 <Daan_>Holland got its wood from Sweden in the 17th century.
14:37 <Phidias>^^
14:37 <Phidias>in ancient times greek had much more wood than nowadays ;)
14:37 <Daan_>Nowadays the world is rapidly losing wood.
14:37 <Phidias>but the mainpart of wood was indeed imported
14:38 <Phidias>phoenician "zedernholz" (i dont know the english expression for that :-/) was one of the most expensive tradegoods
14:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>cedar wood
14:38 <Daan_>Perhaps Erkan knows it, he is german.
14:38 <Daan_>Too late :-)
14:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>too fast :-)
14:39 <Daan_>Or just in time :-)
14:39 <Phidias>i don't know if thracia was famous for wood, but macedonian wood was :)
14:39 <Daan_>They were neighbours.
14:40 <Phidias>jup, but macedonia supported sparta most times
14:40 <Daan_>Otherwise they would have been slaves according to corinth
14:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean Perdiccas who always switched sides ? :-)
14:40 <Daan_>Fighting for freedom.
14:41 <Daan_>That was a funny guy.
14:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
14:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>sorry I was busy with some other channels :-(
14:42 <Daan_>Shall we continue the discussion.
14:43 <Phidias>go on  :)

free oligarchs versus the Athenian democracy

14:43 <Daan_>What about the free oligarchs versus the Athenian democracy, where you have to pay tribute.
14:43 <Phidias>(what was the topic? :D )
14:43 <Daan_>Anyone got an opinion about it?
14:43 <Daan_>I thought it was, it was ......
14:44 <Daan_>Me and Erkan had the idea of appointing a chairman every time, who will guide the discussion.
14:44 <Daan_>rotating chairmanship.
14:44 <pietrodn>Daan_: The Athens politic is a sort of talassocracy
14:45 <Phidias>you mean the oligarchs, that tried to convince the spartans to attack athens before the battle of tanagra, or which ones?
14:45 <Daan_>Pietro, i will look it up.
14:45 <Daan_>All the rulers of the confederation versus Athens probably were oligarchs.
14:45 <Daan_>During the Peloponnesian War.
14:46 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not all, some states like Elis were more democratic oriented
14:46 <Phidias>ah ... yes, the most ones
14:46 <Daan_>I can't find it on Wikipedia, Pietro.
14:46 <pietrodn>Daan_: It's like the politic of Crete, the submitted lands was independent, but they had to pay a tribute
14:47 <pietrodn>Daan_: I don't know the English for "talassocrazia"
14:47 <Daan_>So, it was independent states versus the athenian Empire, regardless of democracy.
14:47 <pietrodn>I'm trying to explain it shortly
14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalassocracy
14:47 <Daan_>Okay
14:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>"The term thalassocracy (from the Greek Θαλασσα, meaning sea, and κρατία, meaning rule) refers to a state with primarily maritime realms—an empire at sea, such as the Phoenician network of merchant cities. Traditional thalassocracies seldom dominate interiors, even in their home territories (for example: Tyre, Sidon, or Carthage). Distinguish this traditional sense of thalassocracy from an "empire," where the state's territories, though possibly linked principally or solely by the sea lanes, generally extend into mainland interiors. Therefore, empires such as the British Empire were not thalassocracies."
14:48 <pietrodn>Daan_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalassocracy
14:48 <Phidias>independent is just a phrase .... the spartans used this terminus for propaganda ;)
14:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>true
14:48 <pietrodn>uh, Erkan linked first
14:49 <Daan_>According to the Corinthians in the speech, the countries in the interior will be supressed after Athens had conquered all the countries on the coast.
14:49 <Daan_>So, the countries in the interior are asked to fight athens as well.
14:49 <Daan_>Phidias, that is always the case ;-)
14:50 <Phidias>so you have to say it all the time :d
14:50 <Daan_>During the First World War, Poland was Russian and the Germans promised liberty, so the Poles fought on the german side.
14:50 <Daan_>Afterwards Germany conquered Poland and the Russians promised liberty.
14:51 <Daan_>But, both Germany and Russia lost.
14:51 <Daan_>Phidias, yes.
14:51 <Phidias>hmm ... it took quite a long time for russia to loose ^^
14:52 <Daan_>After world War II it was.
14:52 <Daan_>But between WWI and WWII, Poland was independent.
14:52 - savagerose joined
14:53 <Daan_>Hi Savagerose!
14:53 <Phidias>ye, because russia had to cope with itself ... revolution and this stuff - i would not call this a lost ^^
14:53 <savagerose>hi Daan
14:53 <myrmikonos>hrhrhr
14:54 <Daan_>Lets discuss Thucydides again, otherwise peopel get a wrong impression. (We were discussing 20th century Eastern europe)
14:54 <Daan_>We are discussingthe text of Thucydides, savagerose.
14:55 <Daan_>Aphorisms 101 to 125 from book i of the Peloponnesian War by thucydides.
14:55 <Phidias>so, what do you think of the situation in sparta after the earthquake? :)
14:55 <Daan_>When was the earthquake?
14:55 <savagerose>okay i will listen to you :) i am just on a explaration tour on this network..
14:55 <Phidias>the messenian riot and all this stuff
14:55 <Daan_>Oh yes.
14:55 <Phidias>kimon was sent there for aid, but was repelled
14:56 <Daan_>I have a habit of supporting the underdog, so i was in favour of the Messenians.
14:56 <Daan_>The athenians were becoming too powerfull, i guess.
14:56 <pietrodn>Phidias: kimon was exiliated for this
14:56 <Daan_>The treatment of Thasos was too wrong?
14:57 <Daan_>Athens stole a mine and a few markets from Thasos.
14:57 <Daan_>With brutal force.
14:57 <savagerose> (sorry for disturbing but you read some texts and then discuss on it?)
14:57 <Phidias>i think this earthquake is somehow very important for athens because if kimon did not leave athens, ephialtes could not have knocked down the power of the areopag
14:57 <Daan_>That is what we are experimenting about.
14:58 <Daan_>But, we have just been started and perhaps the discussion is too chaotic at the moment.
14:58 <Phidias>no, he was exiliated for trying to undo the decisions of ephialtes
14:58 <Phidias>not for aiding the spartans
14:58 <Daan_>I will look it up. The text was the thick, so i missed too many details.
15:00 <Daan_>Aphorism 102, isn't it?
15:00 <Phidias>and problably i'm a bit to free in my words ... i study this stuff and so i don't keep it at the text all the tima
15:00 <Phidias>wait a sec
15:01 <Phidias>its a bit later

language, Aristophanes

15:01 <Daan_>According to the Spartans the Athenians were aliens in race.
15:01 <Phidias>i'm still looking for it
15:01 <Phidias>yes they were ...
15:02 <Phidias>spartans are doric and the athenians primarily ionians :)
15:02 <Daan_>In 124, the Corinthians say that Dorians (Sparta, Corinth) used to be stronger than the Ionians (Athens), but the roles have been reversed.
15:02 <Daan_>So, it was racism.
15:03 <pietrodn>Phidias: Yes, but dorics and Ionians spoke the same language, this is interesting...
15:03 <Phidias>no, not really - its more sort of nationalism on smaller scale
15:03 <Daan_>Perhaps the dialect was different.
15:03 <Phidias>no they did not ... not completely
15:03 <pietrodn>Daan_: demonizing the enemy is an old method...
15:03 <Daan_>Yes, but it it sincere or not.
15:03 <Daan_>is it sincere
15:03 <pietrodn>Daan_: yes, different dialects, but Ionians could understand Dorics e.g.
15:04 <Phidias>it is somewhat like bavarian an saxonian - they are both german, but don't really understand eachother ^^
15:04 <Daan_>Like in Dutch understanding Germans?
15:04 <Phidias>yes
15:04 <Daan_>Yes, that is a good one.
15:04 <Phidias>like this
15:05 <Daan_>Or maybe it was more related to customs instead of language.
15:05 <Phidias>you should try to read aristophanes
15:05 <Daan_>Text 102 says the athenians didn't use the appropriate methods to win the fight.
15:05 <Daan_>I haven't read him.
15:05 <Phidias>he is using the different dialects to create some sort of funny situations
15:05 <Daan_>What does Aristophanes say?
15:05 <Phidias>lysistrate for example :)
15:06 <Daan_>What si lysistrate?
15:06 <Daan_>is
15:06 <myrmikonos>thats not the attic style
15:06 <Phidias>its a comedy of aristophanes ^^
15:07 <Daan_>Okay
15:07 <Phidias>comedy?
15:07 <Phidias>is it called comedy?
15:07 <Daan_>Yes, that is english.
15:07 <Phidias>cool ^^
15:07 * Erkan_Yilmaz is back and must backread
15:07 <Daan_>Hi Erkan
15:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi
15:08 <myrmikonos>phidias do u really read this stuff in ancient greek?
15:08 * Daan_ is trying to distract Erkan from reading.
15:08 <Daan_>Is it much different from modern Greek?
15:08 <Phidias>no, but sometimes i took a look into the ancient part ^^
15:09 * myrmikonos fears the next episode of ute
15:09 <Daan_>It is only 2400 years ago, that can'tbe much.
15:09 <Phidias>no ... ute uses platon till the end - i red aristophanes because lucas told me :)
15:10 <myrmikonos>hm
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hi savagerose
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I also never read Aristophanes
15:11 <Phidias>modern greek uses some expressions from ancient ... and some grammatical smilarities, but 400 years within th osmanian kingdom di leave their traces
15:11 <savagerose>hi Erkan
15:11 <Phidias>they have a lot of turkish exressions nowadays
15:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>assassingr you must have read Aristophanes too ?
15:12 <assassingr>I did
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how did you find us savagerose ?
15:12 <assassingr>Some works of him though
15:12 <assassingr>Savagerose?
15:12 <savagerose>from the list :D
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the freenode list ?
15:12 <savagerose>yes,, well it was a random choice but i liked the discussion..
15:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
15:12 <savagerose>merhaba :)
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello to you too :-)
15:13 <assassingr>Have you read any work of Aristophanes?
15:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>me no, but Phidias has (see above)
15:14 <savagerose>i remember i read but cant translate it into english now..
15:14 <assassingr>I see, but he doesn't mention which work :)
15:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Lysistratus
15:14 <Phidias>well ... i did not want to turn the discussin to aristophanes ...
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
15:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, what was the last which was discussed about Peloponnesian War ?
15:15 <Phidias>it was just so that you can see the diffent kinds of dialects that were in use in these days
15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well it could probably used in war times to distract the enemy on the field
15:16 <myrmikonos>i am supposed to know something about aristophanes, but at least i´ve forgotten everything during the last weeks of examens
15:16 <Erkan_Yilmaz>if he speaks the same way you assume he is your friend
15:16 <myrmikonos>i failed so much :v
15:16 <Phidias>:(

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Corinthian Speech

15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so what next ? talk about some of your questions ?
15:23 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or continue on the text itself ?
15:23 <Daan_>The text is too unstructured.
15:23 <Daan_>Only the Corinthian speech is a coherent story.
15:23 <Daan_>But, it is a beauty.
15:24 <Daan_>The speech alone is worth a discussion for hours.
15:24 <Daan_>What about the distinction between wise and brave?
15:24 <Daan_>I will lokk for the footnotes.
15:24 <Erkan_Yilmaz>are the others still with us ? pietrodn Ramac assassingr myrmikonos savagerose ?
15:24 * pietrodn should go now, he has a lot of homework...
15:25 <assassingr>Yeap, I am
15:25 <Erkan_Yilmaz>just excuses :-)
15:25 * Phidias too :(
15:25 <Ramac>hi
15:25 <assassingr>But busy with wikiversity :)
15:25 <Daan_>Wise men refuse to move until they are wronged, but brave men as soon as they are wronged go to war, and when there is a good opportunity make peace again. They are not intoxicated by military success; but neither will they tolerate injustice from a love of peace and ease. For he whom pleasure makes a coward will quickly lose, if he continues inactive, the delights of ease which he is so...
15:25 <savagerose>here but i prefer just listening and lurking :)
15:25 <Daan_>...unwilling to renounce; and he whose arrogance is stimulated by victory does not see how hollow is the confidence which elates him. Many schemes which were ill-advised have succeeded through the still greater folly which possessed the enemy, and yet more, which seemed to be wisely contrived, have ended in foul disaster. The execution of an enterprise is never equal70 to the conception of...
15:25 <Daan_>...it in the confident mind of its promoter; for men are safe while they are forming plans, but, when the time of action comes, then they lose their presence of mind and fail.
15:25 <assassingr>But I hope my presence gives you strenght
15:25 <Daan_>Aphorism 124
15:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, lets talk about aphorism 124
15:26 - pietrodn quited ("Think different!")
15:26 <Ramac>:|
15:28 <Phidias>so ... what do you want to talk about exactly? ^^
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I just see my aphorism 124 is different than your 124
15:28 <Daan_>It is, how so?
15:28 <Daan_>I used the Jowett translation.
15:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I have a German text and the text above is for me at 120
15:28 <Daan_>Funny
15:29 <Phidias>the speech is quite interesting, indeed, but its more some kind of summary of the position of the peleponnesian league - not more, not less :)
15:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it reminds me of speeches of Archidamus a little bit with failing things in war which you can't know from begin
15:30 <Daan_>Well, this is an attempt to convince people to go to war, but what i like is the poetry of the text.
15:30 <Daan_>The poetic nature, i mean.
15:30 <Daan_>Yes.
15:30 <Daan_>Erkan: yes.
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Archidamus - if I remember correct - was saying: be prudent, keep what you have
15:31 <Phidias>hm ... damn, i think i remember another speech ^^
15:31 <myrmikonos>*looking after the 120 th aph."
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>could be my memory is bad :-)
15:31 <Daan_>But keeping what you have can sometimes mean that war is inevitable.
15:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>didnt pericles also wantto keep what they have ?
15:32 <Daan_>Yes, they were afraid of losing it.
15:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not so much expansion to not fight on many corners
15:33 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so what are the Corinthians saying ? don't be so lazy
15:34 <Daan_>I especially like the first sentence
15:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>can you post it ?
15:34 <Phidias>he already did, i think ^^
15:34 * Erkan_Yilmaz scrolls up
15:35 <Daan_>The first three sentences.
15:35 <Phidias>so ... i think we should stop discussing this in our wise manner and go to war, to make peace again :D
15:36 <Daan_>The problem is, when is it brave to go to war. When do you know that war is better than peace.
15:36 <Daan_>I am mostly always a pacifist.
15:36 <Phidias>simply: when you are wronged ... he is saying it ^^
15:37 <Daan_>Yes, but how do you know that?
15:37 <Phidias>if sombody makes a fool of you, you go to war until there is an situation that you are comfortable with
15:38 <Daan_>That would be very macho indeed.
15:38 <Phidias>i think ... you know, when somebody does something wrong to you - they used the common sense at these days ^^
15:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well, back in that time probably honor was quite important
15:39 <Phidias>yes, very ... and they were indeed quite macho :D
15:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>wasn't this e.g. why Corinth quarreled with Corcyra ?
15:39 <Daan_>Yes, but in the second sentence he uses injustice.
15:39 <Daan_>Yes, perhaps.
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, whom does the Corinthian want to convince ? probably the Lacadaemonians and the not coastal cities
15:40 <Daan_>This is only the speech of one guy, there were other Corinthians who made contradictory speeches.
15:40 <Daan_>Simple, to get as much allies for the war as possible.
15:40 <Phidias>yes, but justice in this days is not some kind of institutional justice, or justice by law - it is the justice of "being the one, who is right"
15:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>the text tells many allies were already in favour
15:41 <Daan_>Phidias, that is right.
15:41 <Daan_>It could be argued that the world is a country today, but back in those days there were many countries.
15:42 <Daan_>So, there were several kinds of justice. Now we got the Human Rights of the United Nations.
15:42 <Phidias>so ... if he is trying to convince sombody, it are the spartans, because until this debate, they did not officially intervene angainst athens
15:42 <Phidias>yes
15:42 <Daan_>It means that there can be a reason to go to war. People could be sold as slaves back then when they lost a war.
15:43 <Phidias>erase "could" and set "were" ;)
15:43 <Daan_>The Spartans already voted for war. Corinth was trying to persuade other allies.
15:43 <Daan_>Not always, i presume.
15:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>you mean the voting of Sthenelaidas ?
15:44 <Daan_>Yes.
15:44 <Daan_>That was before the speech.
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I assume if Sparta would have wanted war, then Corinth would not had to go the deal with such speeches
15:44 <Phidias>no ... the spartans gathered the allies, to see, what they thought of going to war, because the spartans themselfes were not sure
15:44 <Phidias>they even asked the oracle in delphi^^
15:44 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes, to have all "secure"
15:44 <Daan_>Oh, okay. I thought they had already voted. The king of Sparta wasn't sure indeed.
15:45 <Daan_>The arrogance of victory is also a beatyful argument.
15:45 <Daan_>Beautiful
15:45 <Phidias>^^
15:45 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well probably people at Sparta also had different opinions (e.g. the ephors at that time wanted war and others did not)
15:45 <Phidias>indeed
15:46 <Daan_>Yes.
15:46 <Daan_>If you fighting a war on life and death, than you can't be overconfident.
15:46 <Daan_>Otherwise you might lose.
15:46 <Daan_>So, a brave man knows what's going on, even when it is bad news.
15:47 <Phidias>or: a brave man knows, when the time has come to go to war
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I guess during the battle you are pretty much overconfident, when you see the blood and blood hits you
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they are here all just talking
15:47 <Erkan_Yilmaz>in theory everything should be this and that
15:48 <Daan_>Yes, but a brave man also knows when he is losing and will anticipate on it.
15:48 <Daan_>The last sentence describes it
15:48 <Phidias>so that he can make peace, right :)
15:48 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I am not sure if a brave man in one small area knows how the battle is going to develop
15:48 <Daan_>"The execution of an enterprise is never equal70 to the conception of it in the confident mind of its promoter; for men are safe while they are forming plans, but, when the time of action comes, then they lose their presence of mind and fail"
15:49 <Daan_>When you are making plans it is nothing compared to real action.
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is good to have a plan
15:49 <myrmikonos>seneca : only the dead have seen the end of war
15:49 <Daan_>"Many schemes which were ill-advised have succeeded through the still greater folly which possessed the enemy, and yet more, which seemed to be wisely contrived, have ended in foul disaster."
15:49 <Phidias>^^^
15:49 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but the plans are just to show that you thought about it
15:49 <Daan_>This is the sentence before the last one.
15:50 <Daan_>Well, you have to make a plan, but it has a good chance of failing.
15:50 <Daan_>A brave man would know it, and wouldn't hesitate like a wise man.
15:50 <Daan_>That is the poetry of the text.
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I agree the text itself on meta context
15:51 <Erkan_Yilmaz>any plan can and will always fail, because you do not consider all variables
15:51 <Daan_>What is a meta context?
15:51 <Phidias>hmm ... i think he is referring to the point, that athens was at the peak of its power in this days and nobody knew, how it would end up
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>with meta context I mean: the Corinthians are standing in the apella or how it is called and have before thought about how to present them
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they will make the speech foolproof to convince the others (who do not want yet to goto war)
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but still if I were against war, I would not believe anything from what they tell
15:52 <Erkan_Yilmaz>they are just marketing atm
15:53 <Daan_>Yes, that is the problem with nice speeches in politics: they probably only serve a certain purpose, and the person he makes the speech doesn't really believe in it.
15:53 <Phidias>something like: "if we attack athens right now, we can problably beat it. but if we kep on waiting (like a wise man), it could grow stronger and then we will never be able to beat it."
15:54 <Daan_>No, he says that it is wrong always to hesitate, sometimes it is time to fight. But, he does say that he doesn't know what is best.
15:55 <Phidias>rhetorics -.-
15:55 <Daan_>If he had said what you say, Phidias, than the enmies of war would have protested.
15:55 <Phidias>right
15:55 <myrmikonos>so Daan : there are 3 (three) ways of doings something : doing something right, wrong or the militaristic way
15:56 <Daan_>It is too little for the those against war to say it is too much and it could convince those who hesitate.
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there is a 4th way
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>doing nothing and wait
15:56 <myrmikonos>that could be wrong and good
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>could be
15:56 <Phidias>someone could say, that this is the "wrong" way ;)
15:56 <Daan_>That would be the wise man's way ;-)
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but as always you will see at the end
15:56 <Erkan_Yilmaz>not always
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>why waste my ressources when others can waste before me :-)
15:57 <myrmikonos>Seneca : "auch fuer dein nichtstun bist du verantwortlich"
15:57 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Seneca: "also for your not doing something you are respponsible"
15:58 <myrmikonos>thanks
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I mean: Athens at that time was under "control" of Pericles
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and he seems not to want to sought war with Lacedaemonians
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>this could change anytime because of the demos votings
15:58 <Daan_>At the start of the Peloponnesian War, you mean?
15:58 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes and before
15:59 <Daan_>Another question: why did Sparta and Corinth make peace with Athens and then start a war because of Corcyra and Potidaea?
15:59 <Daan_>War party coming into power?
15:59 <Erkan_Yilmaz>which peace, the one in 446 ?
16:00 <Daan_>Or did Athens break the treaty in Corcyra?
16:00 <Daan_>Yes.
16:00 <Daan_>Sparta was at the gates of Athens, retreated without a fight and made peace.
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Corinth was the main reason why the probs with Corinth escalated so much
16:00 <Daan_>And suddenly it is the right time for war because of tweo remote places.
16:00 <Phidias>so, i've got to go ... business :(
16:00 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and here again Corinth is the agitator
16:01 <Daan_>Bye Phidias!
16:01 <Phidias>cya :)
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye Phidias
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>oh btw Phidias
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>one mom
16:01 <Phidias>hm? :)
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>can we make the chat public ?
16:01 <Daan_>Corinth and Athens ahd a border conflict.
16:01 <Phidias>why not? ^^
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>cool
16:01 <Daan_>Yes, fine with me.
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>do the others also agree ?
16:01 <myrmikonos>yes
16:01 <Erkan_Yilmaz>assassingr myrmikonos Ramac savagerose ? private stuff will be deleetd
16:02 <assassingr>Erkan_Yilmaz: I am ok with publishing the log
16:02 <assassingr>As always :)
16:02 <Ramac>ok ok :D
16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx
16:02 <myrmikonos>omg 2 hours?
16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>no prob we will go on :-)
16:02 <Phidias>yes ... thats why i gotta go ^^
16:02 <savagerose>:) i vote for yes
16:02 <Erkan_Yilmaz>thx savagerose
16:02 <Phidias>well then
16:02 <myrmikonos>phidias do u need help at anti-stalin argumentations?
16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>So Daan_
16:03 <Phidias>who is talking of anti-stalin? :D
16:03 <Phidias>no, thanks
16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and here he stays again :-)
16:03 <Daan_>Yes Erkan?
16:03 <myrmikonos>ok
16:03 <Daan_>Phidias the stalinist.
16:03 <Erkan_Yilmaz>Daan_ I am backreading to your questions
16:03 <Phidias>blood is red ;)
16:04 <savagerose>and let me know if you need stalinist argumentations :P
16:04 <Phidias>hehe
16:04 <Phidias>so then
16:04 <myrmikonos>http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7343618077473282887 the five great battles of antiquity
16:04 <Phidias>bye, folks :)
16:04 <myrmikonos>ciao, phid
16:04 <savagerose>bye..
16:04 * Erkan_Yilmaz clicks
16:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>bye Phidias
16:04 <Daan_>bye
16:04 - Phidias quited ("Java user signed off")
16:05 <Daan_>yoh, Daan is here!
16:05 <Daan_>Wanted to do that for more than an hour.
16:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>give me a mom
16:07 - assassingr is now known as assassingr|away
16:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>will have a look at the video later
16:07 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so we were talking about the contradiction: first make peace and then fight again ?
16:07 <Daan_>My computer is too old for video.
16:07 <Daan_>Yes, we were.
16:07 <Daan_>Why is war suddenly necessary
16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>somehow that reminds me of switching sides of Perdiccas :-)
16:08 <Daan_>Yes, it is.
16:08 <Daan_>Good logic never fails.
16:08 <Daan_>Was Perdiccas brave? ;-)
16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well I can't tell you for sure, but probably one group of people who were in power favored it, e.g. ephors, merchants
16:08 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or a dishonored mighty person
16:09 <Daan_>That could be.
16:09 <Daan_>I know little about it, since i only read Thucydides.
16:09 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well unfortunately we don't have a time machine to travel back
16:10 <Daan_>Yes, than Phisidas could ge back to the good old Soviet Union of stalin to see his hero and say: i am a stranger coming to visit you.
16:10 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and probably he would be killed for being a spy :-)
16:10 <Daan_>Okay, that joke wasn't funny.
16:11 <Daan_>My joke, it was.
16:11 <Erkan_Yilmaz>.-)
16:11 <Daan_>He certainly would have, spying for France, the UK, Japan, Germanty, the USA and sabotising crops and factories.
16:12 <Daan_>Just some minor acusations.
16:12 <Daan_>Nothing much, nothing untrue.
16:12 <Erkan_Yilmaz>as every state did, does and will do
16:13 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so lets go to Thucydides back ?
16:13 <Daan_>Not like that.
16:13 <Daan_>Okay.

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16:14 <Daan_>Okay i will find another topic.
16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok
16:14 <Daan_>All my topics have been discussed, i think.
16:14 <Erkan_Yilmaz>oh really ?
16:15 * Erkan_Yilmaz looks also

Mercenaries

16:15 <Daan_>Perhaps there is another juicy detail in the Corinthian speech.
16:15 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah ?
16:16 <Daan_>What about this one: "The Athenian power consists of mercenaries, and not of their own citizens; but our soldiers are not mercenaries, and therefore cannot so be bought, for we are strong in men if poor in money."
16:16 <Daan_>Jowett translation 121
16:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so the allies gave Athens ressources in form of money and Athens hired people from outside
16:17 <Daan_>Yes.
16:17 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so far I have not seen that they bought people from Athenian ships
16:18 <Daan_>I heard in the course on military history that Athens had a Scythian guard of what now is Ukraine.
16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably if I could buy someone, I would not trust this traitor anymore, because he could be bought again :-)
16:18 <Erkan_Yilmaz>double spy
16:19 <Daan_>Yes, but mercenaries only care about money. They aren't spies.
16:19 <Daan_>To have a mercenary, you need to be rich, that's all.
16:19 <Daan_>Funny part is: many mercenary soldiers conquered the state they fought for.
16:19 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well let me go into an Athenian generals head then
16:19 <Daan_>And became the rulers.
16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>about your last comment: so the funny thing is: inviting enemies freely to conquer own territory
16:20 <savagerose>(you enjoy your discussion, i will be away for awhile... i thought you might get worried if you realized the absence of my silence)
16:20 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
16:20 <Daan_>you must have several different mercenary soldiers, who wouldn't cooperate with eachother.
16:20 - savagerose is now known as sava|away
16:20 <Daan_>I think
16:21 <Daan_>And you also need an army of your own.
16:21 <Daan_>Otherwise the mercenaries can overpower you.
16:21 <Erkan_Yilmaz>agree, own army is important other even if different merecneray groups they could join anyway against you
16:22 <Daan_>The good thing about mercenaries is, that you can have the best soldiers for the best task. If you have an army of volunteers, than it probably is a chaotic bunch.
16:22 <Daan_>In Europe, mercenaries dominated warfare from 1300 to 1800.
16:23 <Daan_>The Roman Empire was conquered by Germanic soldiers fighting for Rome at first.
16:23 <Daan_>The Persian method is better: conquering a huge empire, so the soldiers are always from your own empire.
16:24 <Daan_>The problem is that large empires become very peaceful, both Persia and Rome had little soldiers.
16:24 <Daan_>So, they could be conquered by militaristc nations: like the greek of Alexander the Great of Macedon.
16:25 <Daan_>Nowadays that is no issue anymore, kalashnikovs can be used easily and we got atomic bombs.
16:26 <Daan_>Erkan, i think a forum discussion works etter than a chat discussion.
16:26 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well so you are telling me is:
16:26 <Daan_>better.
16:27 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well for this topic I can't tell you much about mercenaries
16:27 <Daan_>We can have both forum and chat, and have chat for a different purpose than the forum.
16:27 <Daan_>Okay.
16:27 <Daan_>I was changing the subject, but we can pursue on mercenaries.
16:28 <Daan_>I know little about it. I am just thinking of some ideas.
16:28 <Daan_>So, your remarks wouldn't be more wrong then mine.
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well if I bring other people than mine into my land, I would make sure they do not revolt against me
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>but how ?
16:28 <Daan_>The problem of chat is that you can't write and respiond to essays.
16:28 <Erkan_Yilmaz>either have guarantees in form of people from their homes
16:29 <Daan_>Sorry, i go back to mercenaries again.
16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or use them in various places where my own people are dominant
16:29 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or use them at the front of a battle wave :-)
16:29 <Daan_>But, suppose you are losing a war, would you hire so many mercenaries that you can't control them anymore, or lose the war?
16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or even better: get their trust if this is possible
16:30 <Daan_>A devilish dillema
16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>well the question is what is more effective ?
16:30 <Daan_>Both is not done.
16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>there are ways like: bribing enemy, sending assassinations
16:30 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hello assassingr|away
16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>try to make a truce to build up my force
16:31 <Daan_>But if that isn't possible.
16:31 <Daan_>Remember the Corinthian speech: when it is time for action, plans could fail.
16:31 <Daan_>Adn than you have to think of an alternative quickly.
16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so, how long would it take to hire mercenaries ? I mean you must send them the info, make deals, bring them here
16:31 <Erkan_Yilmaz>this takes quite some time ?
16:32 <Daan_>And you need money, the money can be stolen.
16:32 <Daan_>The enemy could secretly bribe your mercenaries.
16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>or the messenger/ship could be lost somehow
16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so I guess if someone decides on merecenaries, he would do it long in advance
16:32 <Daan_>Athens probably had long term contracts.
16:32 <Erkan_Yilmaz>to be sure they arrive
16:33 <Daan_>And a confident unique power base, as the sole power in the Aegean Sea.
16:34 <Daan_>Corinth is a bit anarchisitc: fight the larger power, temporarily combine means to be free afterwards.
16:34 <Erkan_Yilmaz>I guess Corinth thought they have a mutual agreement with Athens
16:35 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and when this did not work out they used afterwards all means to fight them
16:36 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hat was the government of Corinth ? also more oligarchic
16:36 <Daan_>It is the fear of losing all if you don't defend little.
16:36 <Daan_>Yes.
16:36 <Daan_>Conservative is a better word.
16:36 <Daan_>anarchists would be local democrats, like Elis.
16:38 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so where are we again ?
16:38 <Daan_>Perhaps you know something to discuss about regarding the text.
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>how about we stop it for today then, we have already about 2,5h and my head at least is dizzy
16:39 <Daan_>Mine as well: alcohol.
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we could make again some proposals for next week before the next meeting
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we didn't ask when it would be ok for others next week
16:39 <Daan_>Shall we read the finishing parts for next saturday 14.00u
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>probably same time ?
16:39 <Erkan_Yilmaz>assassingr|away myrmikonos Ramac sava|away
16:39 <Daan_>Yes.
16:40 <Daan_>So, aphorism 125 to end of book I?
16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>sounds ok
16:40 <Daan_>I hope the text is better to read. This time it was really thick.
16:40 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ah, we will see, but we had quite some chat here today
16:41 <Daan_>Yes.
16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>and also many people joining
16:41 <Daan_>It becomes more every week. And some history students.
16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yeah, that is the begin of a new era :-)
16:41 <Erkan_Yilmaz>ok, I will soon post the chat
16:42 <Daan_>Wikiversity rules the waves!
16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>hehe
16:42 <Erkan_Yilmaz>so rest well and I will eat something now
16:43 <Daan_>Okay, goodbye, see you next week
16:43 <Erkan_Yilmaz>definitely and until then in WV :-)

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17:04 <savagerose>it was nice to listen in your discussion.. and i liked the idea very much.. hope to see you again.. take care and enjoy your times :)
17:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>see you next week ?
17:04 <Erkan_Yilmaz>same time, same place
17:04 <savagerose>sure with pleasure
17:04 <savagerose>i need to find the text and read before joining :)
17:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>yes that is great, and if you don't read all, we can tell you
17:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is important for us that you are here than that you know all details
17:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>we are a collective brain
17:05 <savagerose>thats a great idea indeed..
17:05 <Erkan_Yilmaz>:-)
17:06 <savagerose>i would like to participate in.. so i will find the text from the url in the topic..
17:06 <savagerose>?
17:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>it is here:
17:06 <Erkan_Yilmaz>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War/Book_1
17:06 <savagerose>thank you..