Talk:Introduction to German

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Introduction to German page.
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Can we do two things here:

1. Make it into a stream, as suggested on Wikiversity:Naming_conventions
2. Move most of this content into a unit (and maybe even a lesson inside it).

Sounds good. --HappyCamper 20:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikibooks!

Please try to use material from Wikibooks rather than recreating verb charts, etc., from scratch. There's a wealth of material already available that you can use for this project. Take advantage of it! The Jade Knight 15:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Interlingual collaboration

Please see the new additions to Wikiversity translations.

Check this out:

• Topic:Spanish
• Topic:English
• Topic:German
• Topic:Chinese
• Topic:Portugese
• Topic:Dutch
• Topic:French
• Topic:Korean
• Topic:Russian
• Topic:Swedish
• Topic:Romanian
• Topic:Kurdish
• Topic:Italian
• Topic:Polish
• ...

We may need to coordinate Language divisions. Agree? Disagree? Don't care? CQ 22:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

How can I help?

I have to admit that this is the first time I've tried to do anything on any of the Wiki projects. But, I'm an unemployed American in Dresden, Germany with a degree in German and am naturally game to help here in any way I can. I wanted to help with the German section as "tuition" for the math I'm trying to learn. The question is, I don't know how all this is being coordinated or what I can offer. But, like I said, I'm game to jump in.

STCrowley 06:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, i'mstudying for a languages degree (German and spanish) and i'll help in any way i can - i'm hoping somebody will clear up whther this is all a coordinated effort or not for me!! Regards Markc 23:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's the thing: Wikiversity is a relatively new project...the idea is, we want to build online learning communities around educational materials. I'd like to learn German myself, so maybe if we can set up a little page for say, writing exercises, that would be neat. We can also make audio clips. --HappyCamper 00:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's get some organisation going

Okay, so I'm pretty new around here. As in, I just created my account five minutes ago. I'd classify my German at conversational proficiency; but I'm by no means fluent. I've been working on wikis for quite a while (same username on Wikipedia-EN, Wikipedia-DE, Wikipedia-ES, Wiktionary, Wikiquote...), but I just joined up here. Anyway, I was wondering what the best way to get some organisation in this topic would be. Should it be organised by how advanced each lesson is? Should it be organised by topics - like, what you'd need to make small talk, or what you'd need in an emergency, etcetera? Maybe a combination of both, with the major lessons organised by how advanced they are, and then additional vocabulary lists organised by topic. What do you think the best way to learn/teach a language is? I've always found it easiest to jump right in and learn new words and phrases, and worry about grammar as I go along. But that may well just be me. So, thoughts and opinions? Let's get this project going!

I'm going to go look around for libre material to use here. Maybe I'll put it in a group of subpages under my userpage. Let me know if there's anything in particular that I can do! Elcisitiak 01:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend basing lessons around the German Wikibook. It's free, award-winning, and also easy to integrate (and look at that cover)! The Jade Knight 09:49, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Lessons

I assume that most of the visitors would be glad to see lessons here, instead of this mess. This article could be the main page for German material, I can write some introductory lessons, but it just doesn't fit anywhere in this mess. Gdivos 19:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Topc:German ready to go

Hey everybody, this page looked a bit of a mess (and like not much was happening), so I decided to go ahead and create topic and stream pages. See them at German stream and Topic:German. I'm going to move the relevant parts of this page across tomorrow or this week sometime, then start working on some lessons.

Thanks, Aaron AaronRichard 12:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The word spread

We (some users from de.wikiversity) need help by the translation of the word "spread" in the context of spreadfirefox. One of us thought that spread mean something like the german words "bekannt machen" ("advertise, advertise, publicize, publish") and so he made on de.wikiversity a page with name "Spread Wikiversity". Now is our question, is that correct or can that be misunderstood?

I ask here, because I hope that on a talk page like this I found an nativ speaker that understand our problem and can help us.

-- MichaelFrey 16:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Alphabet "Pronunciation"

Maybe I'm being picky, but I don't think the letters B, C, D, and all others that rhyme in German rhyme with the English word "Bay". That sound is more /eɪ/ when the German letters are more /e/. I think it's misleading to tell a new learner that they sound like the English "ay" when it's really more like "eh". I'm going to change them and if someone wants to add IPA to help that could work.74.129.182.66 07:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

To my ears, /e/ is also an -ay sound. /ɛ/, on the other hand, is "eh". The Jade Knight 09:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry, but it's wrong. English -ay is /eɪ/. There needs to be a transcription or at least a note that shows that the final /ɪ/ is not there. It doesn't matter how it sounds to your ears. It matters what the official sound is and how it's represented in IPA.74.129.182.66 15:52, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no "official" sound in English for -ay (English has no "official" sounds—with dozens of countries which have English as an official language, each of them with their own particular pronunciations, there is no "official" English pronunciation for anything). And I pronounce -ay as /e/ most of the time, and /eɪ/ only some of the time (particularly during "slow speech"—ie, deliberate enunciation). In English, /ɛ/ is the "eh" sound, as in "bed" and "dead". And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of English speakers would associate /e/ with -ay (as in "bay") more than with -eh (as in "bed"). The Jade Knight 23:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA_chart_for_english the -ay in "bay" is /eɪ/ in all but Australian English. This would be wrong to teach students because German lacks the /eɪ/ sound. There's really no /e/ sound in any dialect but Australian "bed" and although "eh" would sound like /ɛ/ in most (if not all) dialects, using "eh" here clarifies the ambiguity between /eɪ/ and /e/. If you use -ay that makes it seem like it's intended to be a diphthong which would be very misleading. It's better to use -eh and have them think of the Canadian "eh?" If you would like to go through and add IPA to each letter then be my guest. Unfortunately not everyone knows IPA and this website is intended to be a learning guide. 74.129.182.66 16:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The "general American" dialect mentioned there is that of Midwestern US English, which is giving way to Western US English, which is the dialect I speak. The simplication of /eɪ/ to /e/ is a growing trend in the West, as recent linguistic studies show. In Western American minds, at least, /e:/ sounds more like /eɪ/ than like /ɛ/. "Eh" sounds like /eɪ/ only when used as an interjection (per Canadian usage). The rest of the time it makes an /ɛ/ sound (consider the words "heh" and "meh"). BTW, Canadian "eh" is pronounced /eɪ/, not /e:/ (and so if you're intending -eh to sound like the Canadian, you're trying to get a pronunciation identical to -ay). When an English speaker reads "geh" as a pronunciation guide, they're going to think that it rhymes with meh in English (/mɛ/), which is further away from the right sound (/ge:/)to American ears than /geɪ/ would be. Teaching Americans that German /e:/ sounds like /ɛ/ would be particularly unhelpful—/ɛ/ and /e:/ are a minimal pair in German, and you're bound to just confuse people by doing it how you are. You'll notice that the alphabet page at [1] uses -ay (and not -eh) to portray the pronunciation of the German alphabet. The Jade Knight 01:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Better than a diphthong. People aren't stupid. -eh remains. Oh, and your "about.com" page is crap. It doesn't show that z is "tset" instead of "zet" and it incorrectly shows ö as being "ooh". C is "tseh" not "say". It also has i as "eeh" when it should be "ee". About.com copies Wikipedia all the time anyway. It's a crap website in general.RedAugust 17:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

But you also suggested the people use the German Wikibook. If you look there (and I'm sure you'd trust it more than About.com) you'll see that it uses -eh also. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Appendices/Alphabet#The_Alphabet RedAugust 18:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

You are being rude. The about.com page is not mine. Nor did I suggest that people are stupid. However, the current pronunciation guide is going to be confusing and misleading for most speakers of American English. Additionally, you may wish to notice that until half a year ago, the -ay spellings were used on the German Wikibook, and had been there for years. One anonymous editor evidently liked "-eh" more. However, this same user then added in incorrect pronunciation for the German letters, saying that they are pronounced with /ɛ/ instead of /e:/. As such, its existence on the Wikibooks page doesn't much support your case. Perhaps the best thing to do is simply to give the audio for each letter, and the German name for it (Omniglot.com, for example, gives the native Name, not an English approximation[2]). The Jade Knight 19:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The term "yours" was used to draw attention to the fact that you suggested it, not that you created it. Either way About.com is wrong. Do you have a German textbook on-hand? I seem to recall mine having -eh in it (first year... forever ago). If you don't like it, I'm sorry... it is more æsthetically pleasing and it doesn't give room to create a diphthong. For your benefit and the benefit of anyone else who may be confused, I'll include that the pronounciation of "-eh" should be /eː/ or (and this is true in some dialects) /ɛ/. Argument over.

That still doesn't really solve the problem. What would be best is to include the German name written in German, with sound clips. Then there will be no chance at confusion. IPA is good, but what you have there now is going to mislead more than help. New learners don't particularly want to have the accent of "some dialects" that would make them sound affected. When you teach a new student French, you don't teach them Québécois, for example. The Jade Knight 22:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

As it is, the whole section already reduplicates Wikibooks. It would likely be better to simply have people go to Wikibooks and use the examples there (which include audio). The Jade Knight 22:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are you extensively discussing this instead of changing it? As it is I've been the only one to make any progress on this. I like the way it is. Nobody I know who has never spoken German or even knows what the IPA is had any problems pronouncing these letters correctly with the transcription provided. If you feel sound clips are in order you can add them yourself. Quit being a child about it. RedAugust 23:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Please stop with the ad-hominem attacks and other rudeness. I would like to recommend that you spend some time reviewing Wikiversity:Civility carefully before responding again. Since sound clips already exist at Wikiversity, I am going to recommend that we remove this section (which is entirely redundant with the material at Wikiversity) and replace it with a link to the appropriate Wikiversity page, which also includes IPA (which is lacking here). Anyone opposed? Or perhaps you think I should simply be bold and make the change without discussing it first, RedAugust? The Jade Knight 04:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I feel like removing this argument from this page altogether (if that's ok with you). I don't have time for this anyway.RedAugust 03:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Short of archiving, it's generally not ok to remove material from talk pages. If you have no objections, however, then I'll go about implementing the change I have just suggested. The Jade Knight 05:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

At this point I could care less. This has become a waste of my time. RedAugust 23:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)